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Grace

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Monday, February 22nd 2010, 11:55am

Napping

OK, some help required.

Most nights we have night sleeping in his crib sorted, he goes from 10pm to 6am waking 2 times in between, however, although he sleeps well during the day he will only do so when held. I have tried the put down/pick up method (put him down, if he crys pick up and comfort then put down again as soon as he's calm) but it doesn't work, I put him down and he starts to cry but it takes anything from 5 to 20 mins to get him to stop (sadly usually closer to the 20 mins) so by the time i've done this a few times 2 hours have passed and it's time to eat (and at this point he's not the only one crying). I know he's overtired by the time he's crying but if I put him down before he crys he won't sleep for waving his arms and legs (darkening the room makes no difference), he goes from awake and playing to screaming because he's tired within an instance with no warning signs at all I've tried timing it (as it's usully 45mins to an hours play) but if he's not already crying he just won't entertain sleeping but once he's crying he insists on being held. If i hold him until he's asleep (or even just really sleepy) and then put him down he will wake within 2-3 minutes and scream, even though I'm still right there, he won't stop unless I pick him up but even then he will then cry/scream for 20 mins and will start again if i move him so much as an inch off my chest.

If my mother makes one more reference to him "having us wrapped round his finger" because I won't leave him to scream himself to sleep I may stop talking to her, she thinks babies of all ages are capable of subtrefuge and that's why he's crying, I've pointed out that young babies only cry when they want/need something and are not being naughty (as supported by all the current research) to which she replies "want a bet" AAAAAAAAAAARGH why are old people so irritating (or is it just my mother). I've now reached breaking point as he's almost 3 months old and I can't do anything during the day for holding him (my one hand typing skills are excellent) and he's obviously never going to sleep during the day without me teaching him how to but I don't know how!! I have to pack anything I need 2 hands for into the 2 hours between my dh getting home (and taking care of our smallholding after work) and 8pm when I start his bedtime routine (Jensen's not DH's).

Please give me some advice, I'm so tired due to the broken nights sleep but I can't sleep during the day for fear of accidentally hurting him while I sleep and I can't see it is ever going to get better unless I do something.


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JENSQUI

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Monday, February 22nd 2010, 1:30pm

Hi grace. Not sure i can help much. We have had trouble with getting martha to sleep during day and then getting overtired and grumpy later on. Seen to have cracked it in last few days tho. Have been following baby whisperer easy method. Think that it is the flailing arms that stop her from getting to sleep. So now i swaddle her before putting her in basket. She still manages to wriggle arms free but takes her a while and by that time she is pretty much asleep. We are lucky that she doesn't really cry tho. Hope you get something sorted x


me 38, DP 44, ttc since 2005
BFP May 07 - HB seen @ 8 wks but CRL only 7 weeks, m/c @ 9 wks
BFP Jan 08 -m/c @ 11 wks (D&C)
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Monday, February 22nd 2010, 5:51pm

Grace I swear I was just about to replicate your thread before I came across it. Seems very similar to my situation right now.
TJ gets overtired in an instant too and once he is, Its all out screaming tantrum, Iv started refusing to pick him up so he learns he is in bed to sleep and he isnt getting out again. I discovered today if I play music right next to his ear and he hears it(through the screams) he will stop long enough to calm a little but had to repeat this around 12 times.
The hands flapping I relate to also, Just as he is nodding off he will hit himself in the face Iv bee putting a muslin next to his face so it softens the blows :snigger: Though now he seems to be getting attached to this as well as his dummy, I seem to be just makig matters worse all the time ;(
I undertand what you mean about leaving him to cry some members of my family think this too(so did I til not so long ago)
What Iv started today is leaving him in bed as long as it takes, even if I have to feed him and put him straight back down until he sleeps TJ needs to know bed is for sleeping and he isnt getting picked up and I just sit by him whole time rubbing his face, playing the music so he knows Im there.
Only 1 other thing I can think of and thats once he starts screaming strip him to the vest as Iv found TJ gets so hot with all the crying and then cant settle for sweating. Hope we both get this sorted soon xfingers

Grace

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Tuesday, February 23rd 2010, 8:12am

Thanks Pammy and Jensqui

Sadly Jensen hates being swaddled and he's inherited my stubborn streak (I make mules seem easy going), I have tried putting him in his basket and patting/stroking/shushing him but after 1hr 45 mins of crying/screaming I gave up, of course he was so tired at this point that when I picked him up he was asleep before his head hit my shoulder. Jensen only flails his arms when he's excited but he goes from excited to tired instantly and resists all my efforts to calm down before he gets overtired, once you get him to the sleepy stage his arms don't cause any problem. I also have the baby whisperer book but Jensen doesn't fit ANY of the baby stereotypes (he has aspects of all of them but not enough of any one to say that one wins) and nothing I have tried works on him.

Pammy I wouldn't worry about him getting attached to the muslin, I had a blankie (it still lives in my underwear draw) which I couldn't be without until I went to school.


ICSI BFP DS1 born Nov 09
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This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Grace" (Feb 23rd 2010, 8:14am)


pamelag088

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Tuesday, February 23rd 2010, 9:56am

I was trying to put TJ into those categories too, Wasnt really one that fit.
I reckon all his grumpiness is directly linked to his overtiredness. Over stimulation is also a factor in becoming overtired. Perhaps he is really sensitive to any kind of stimulation and maybe he find it really hard to wind down. this is what i thik with TJ as I put him to bed when he still happy but he can still be there an hour later ad scremaing by this time rubbing his eyes etc, According to the books he should have drifted off into a peaceful slumber by then :cross:

Iv been trying to follow the baby whisperer too but to be honest it isnt working for us. He feeds then plays then sleeps then wakes too soon and if I keep him up another cycle he going ape. What Im going to try to do instea of this cycle is have set naps where I set up some kind of routine with them as he has at bedtime, never have any problems then.

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Tuesday, February 23rd 2010, 10:34am

Hi Grace,

All i can say is snap, Isla is an ok sleeper at night but hates to sleep anywhere other than my arms during the day (which i dont allow), as soon as she is in the cot she wakes X( , she also hates swaddling and it makes her worse, and like Pammys wee boy she hits herself in face with the arms - im also at a loss as to what to do (dont want to keep taking her out in pram as when weather is bad i just cant so need to get it sussed as well)

godd luck



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Grace

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Tuesday, February 23rd 2010, 12:25pm

What I want to know is all those books and articles which tell you to sleep when the baby sleeps WHY did they not mention this? how can you sleep if you're holding bubs all day?

Stupid books and articles :(


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pamelag088

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Tuesday, February 23rd 2010, 12:41pm

Agree

Its a heap of crap, I never thought for a second that I would have all ths trouble. I thought when a baby is tired, they just go to sleep, How wrong was I? Iv had him in bed since 10 and he slept 30 mins and had a feed in between then and now. He still shattered and Im starting to feel sorry for him being in there all that time, But if I took him out he wouldt be happy and smily anyway :sadface:

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Wednesday, March 3rd 2010, 1:51pm

okay, don;t want to get too complacent as have only been trying this method for a few days.....but it seems to be working incredibly well to get Martha to nap during the day (especially as she very rarely sleeps in the pram as is just too interested in looking about).
Based on baby whisperer (is my bible!!), I scoop her up as soon as I see the first yawn and calm her by speaking gently to her. She is usually making unhappy wails at this point so I make the loudest 'SHH, WHOOOSH' noise that I can to override the wailing. This seems to get her attention so I then put her in her basket. She is unhappy about this but I keep 'SHHHing' (sounds a bit like the sea) and rock very very gently. She shuffles about but whenever I sense another wail I increase the volume of my 'SSSHH' and she pays attention again. Eventually she stops making a sound and I can see her eyes start to open and close. I stop rocking but keep 'SSSHing' until her eyes have finally closed. I keep doing this for a few minutes, gradually decreasing the volume until I think she is properly asleep and then come out of her room (if I walk away as soon as she shuts her eyes she just wakes up and wails / flails her arms around again).

Anyway, just thought I would share in case it might work for some of you.

xxx


me 38, DP 44, ttc since 2005
BFP May 07 - HB seen @ 8 wks but CRL only 7 weeks, m/c @ 9 wks
BFP Jan 08 -m/c @ 11 wks (D&C)
BFP Jun 08 - early loss
BFP Dec 08 - HB & CRL ok @ 8 wks, but sac too small, m/c @ 9 wks
BFP Apr 09 - Martha born 9th Jan 2010
BFP Feb 12 - Eliza born 13th Oct 2012

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Wednesday, March 3rd 2010, 2:01pm

Thanks Jen

I have the book too. This sometimes works for us too but normally he is in too much of a state for any noise to override his screaming. Iv been putting him to bed to nap same time everyday and this seems to be working for us, He normally goes an hour and a half in afternoo and about an hour in morning.

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Wednesday, March 3rd 2010, 3:28pm

Hi Ladies

I have napping sorted due to the Baby Whisperer book. However, I got worn out with the Shhhhhushing and so I play white noise in the room whenever they are sleeping and if they are fighting it I turn it right up. I've got a stereo in their room and just turn the radio to a channel that's just static, they have longer naps and are less disturbed by outside noises etc with the white noise on. Might be worth a try.

x


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Grace

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Friday, March 5th 2010, 7:51am

Thank you all for your replies, sorry I've not been on recently jensen suddenly decided he was not going to sleep AT ALL during the day which meant he was screaming constantly due to being tired. I have spent the last week in a darkened room with him much of the day wrestling with him to get him to sleep. ANYWAY, I am now downstairs on my own and Jensen is asleep IN HIS COT :faint: I bow to you IndieChick, if you were here I would kiss you, usually it took 45 mins to get him to sleep and he would only sleep for 5-20 mins before waking up and screaming again, it took 5 to get him to sleep this morning and he's already been asleep for 30 minutes and all because I have left the radio on white noise I think I love you :)

I have thrown away my baby whisper book as it doesn't help with Jensen, for instance he sucks his hands when he's tired and not when hungry, he hates being patted and becomes hysterical if you swaddle him - awkward child, he makes up for it by being so cute when he's not yelling.

Anyway I'm off to check on him, it's odd I waited 3 months wishing he would sleep independantly during the day so I could get things down and now he is I can't stop worrying that he's awfully quiet AND I've got a breathing monitor on him so I shouldn't be worried at all!


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Indiechick

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Friday, March 5th 2010, 2:21pm

Aww Grace, so glad it worked! it was a god send for me, interestingly enough last night DH didn't put the white noise on and both of the boys woke through the night and no amount of rubbing was going to get them back to sleep (so I've been up since 4.45am :bawl: ) and I swear it's because of the lack of white noise.

If your binmen haven't been yet, get that book back out! The reason I say this is because it didn't make much sense for us until the boys were 6 months +. Before then I couldn't get them in to any form of EASY and the cues were all confused but eventually I was able to put Tracey Hogg's ideas in to practice and I am now a firm believer. Not saying you have to do it but just keep hold of it, you never know!

How long did he nap for and how has the rest of the day gone?
x


3rd IUI - 08/08/08 - tested 22/08/08 BFP :D
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Grace

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Friday, March 5th 2010, 6:56pm

He only naps for 30 mins instead of othe 45 mins they say his sleep cycle should last, then he's awake for about an hour and a half then I put him back to sleep again. He had 3 naps yesterday until 1pm when he was so tired (probably because his naps are too short) that I took him straight back to bed after feeding him and he wouldn't settle so I let him sleep on me for 2 hours and we'll start again tomorrow, I don't want him to go down for the night exhausted because then he won't sleep properly overnight. Hopefully as he gets used to the idea he'll nap for longer as he'll nap for an hour and 30 easy on me if I let him.


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Indiechick

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Saturday, March 6th 2010, 4:17pm

Hi Grace

How did today go? By the sounds of it your little one it overtired. Although at his age you should be aiming for an hour and a half awake (activity) time he's sounds as if he's too tired to handle that and the tiredness is just a never ending circle., he will then wake up after 30mins because he's too tired to go in to a deep sleep How does he sleep at night?

What you might want to look at doing is reducing the amount of Activity time for a few days to see if he naps longer. I know it sounds crazy but I started to shorten the boys awake time and they were then going down before they were overtired and eventually it led to hour and a half to 2 hour naps. Perhaps you could try and put him down after an hour? At one point my two were so overtired that I could see no way out and so DH and I spent the whole weekend taking it in turns to go out for a 2 hour drive just to get the sleep in, extreme I know but it got them off the overtired train.

What time is bed time?


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Saturday, March 6th 2010, 8:45pm

This didnt work for TJ indie, He was constantly tired, Sometimes I would put him down after just 40mins awake and still he would only sleep half hour, Then of course because he had slept so little he was shattered so I tried to get him back to sleep but by time he fell asleep he was due another feed so he would either sleep through his feed and muck up routine or I would feed him and put him straight back down. I tried this for a week with little imporvement. His longest nap was always in the morning.
Grace is this whats happening to you too? I truly believe the more stimulation TJ gets the quicker he becomes tired and its very quick from happy to screaming. I try not to spend to long on really stimulating activity, Maybe half hour then settle it down to quiet cuddles and singing gently. There has been a massive improvement in last week where he now naps 3 times a day for around an hour and I tried to get him to sleep on me and he was having one of it today, put him in bed and he was down in 10 mins.
Im not sure if he has grown out of it or if the less full on stimulation has helped.
I also try to get out for a while everyday, The fresh air and new things to see normally helps him wheras if we are stuck in the house all day he gets really cranky and hard to settle.
Im glad he is gettin better hopefully it will settle down soon, I agree its overtiredness but when your trying to get them to sleep and they just lay awake for hours its so hard :snigger: Then you spend the next 3 hours trying to get them to sleep again, I totally sympathise

Grace

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Sunday, March 7th 2010, 10:38am

He sleeps very well at night, although this was a very hard fought battle as well. I can get him to stay awake for an hour and a half but the last 15 mins will be crying because he's tired, he can go an hour fairly easily but usually and hour and 15 is his max and this includes the morning when he's had loads of sleep overnight.

Jensen doesn't seem to get like that Pammy he NEVER sleeps through a feed. I think the trouble with him is he doesn't WANT to go to sleep, he's so interested in stuff around him that he gets very cross when he gets tired. Everyone comments on just how alert he is when he's awake and he never has the quiet awake periods babies are supposed to have he's always just on full all the time, he also gets bored very easily and will cry from boredom as well so I have to walk round with him rather than sit still. Also once tired or overstimulated he doesn't turn away from stimulation, he actively seeks it out. I can sit in a darkened room with one tiny crack of light coming through the window and he will try to turn his head right around to look at it while balling because he's tired or overstimulated, silly boy. People keep telling me it's a sign he's very intelligent but I think they're just trying to make me feel better, although his daddy is very intelligent (took all his exams a year early) and he was exactly the same aparently so there might be something in it. He'd better have won the Nobel Peace prize by the time he's 10 to make up for it.

Then when he gets tired, he doesn't realise he's grumpy because he's tired he just knows he feels bad and I'm trying to take him away from his playtime, if I try to have quiet time before he gets tired he objects because it's boring to him, he crys as soon as I try to wind him down. It doesn't matter how long he's awake for we still have an argument before he gives up and goes to sleep and he will still only sleep for 30 mins and once for 45 mins, he starts to cry now when I walk him into the bedroom, I don't even have to lie him down. Yesterday he did well until the afternoon and then he just wouldn't go to sleep, it didn't matter WHAT I did not even if I held him would he go to sleep, he was awake from 1pm to 5pm and this disturbed his nightime a little as he woke every 2 hours again instead of every 3 because he kept falling asleep on my boobie and refusing to wake up. It's a good job he's so cute to make up for it as I'm knackered today and I have conjunctivitis which is making my weekend even better, god I hope Jensen doesn't get it :(


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Indiechick

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Sunday, March 7th 2010, 11:42am

Aww Grace big hugs, it's exhausting isn't it.

from what you have siad in your last post I personally would try and put him down at the hour mark and that leaves him 15 mins to acclimatise to his room etc before he ventures in to the overtired world. He certainly does sound very alert and very intellegent.

My two were never that peaceful baby that just 'was' they were either, eating, sleeping (not for long) or screaming! It took me a good few weeks to combat the overtiredness but life has been so much easier since!

Does he sleep in the buggy? Could you time a good hour and a half walk at nap time?

x


3rd IUI - 08/08/08 - tested 22/08/08 BFP :D
Scan 09/09/08 - 2 [zx076] [zx076] TWINS!
2 beautiful boys born 16/04/09

Grace

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Monday, March 8th 2010, 8:47am

No, sadly if I take him out he's so busy looking about he doesn't sleep, if he does he wakes up the second you stop moving (same in the car). Yesterday was hell, he took longer and longer to get to sleep as the day went on until he screamed for an hour and 15 mins instead of sleeping (I put him down early as he was tired) I had to go and sit downstairs for the last 10 and just let him cry as I was just so tired, then he wouldn't sleep properly last night so I'm knackered again this morning AND I now have the start of a cold.

Ach, he's waking up again I had better go and get him before he gets cranky.


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Grace

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Monday, March 8th 2010, 7:02pm

Well I wish I hadn't thrown my baby whisperer book in the bin, I wish I'd burnt it. I've just had him weighed and his weight gain has halved in the 2 weeks I've been following the bloody E.A.S.Y routine which tells me not to feed on demand. Jensen takes a full feed every 2 hours but has always topped up during that time as he has reflux and is often very pukey, the book puts this down to over-feeding, which is clearly not true for Jensen. He is now back to feeding on demand, if he so much as wimpers I stick my boob in his mouth and we've had no tantrums and he's asleep already upstairs in his own bed without the hysterics from yesterday, this does mean I won't be able to establish a routine during the day but I'd rather he had good weight gain and we'll wait to establish a routine. I know that they want these books to be a total solution but I wish they'd put a caviat that their solution doesn't work for every baby as I've been feeling like a total failure because Jensen wouldn't fit into the routine and it's because he can't go 2.5 - 3 hourly feeding due to his reflux and his throwing up is due to this and not due to overfeeding. Anyway, I'm going to go back to the Drs and refuse to leave until they help me with his reflux as it's beyond a joke and I keep getting fobbed off because they always say "well his weight gain is OK" and not appreciating that's because I can sometimes top him up every 20-30 minutes between feeds due to him throwing up about a third of everything he's eaten.

Thank you all for your help it's really nice to have somewhere to sound off and hear others with similar stories, I shall be back to the drawing board this time but to be honest he laughed for the first time yesterday and I couldn't care less if he keeps me awake for the rest of my life :)


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Monday, March 8th 2010, 7:16pm

Oh Grace, I'm so sorry to hear about your day! Poor you and poor Jensen! One of mine had reflux and colic and the docs eventually pescribed infant gaviscon and Donperidone which worked a treat. I struggled to fit in to the BW's ideas until the boys were 6 months+, before then I just fed on demand. You never know Jensen might fine his own routine.

Anyway, hope your ok and hope that you get some joy at the doctors x


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Monday, March 8th 2010, 8:17pm

Grace, i have to agree B also has reflux therefore i just BF on demand night & day. I used some of the baby whisperers tips/ideas to establish a good bedtime routine but i wouldnt be able to use her EASY routine with B , well not yet anyway. The days her reflux is bad she feeds all the time & on the good days will go 3 hours max between feeds. Plus because she has reflux eating followed by activity aint a good idea! My aim is to keep her as still as i can, asleep is best to keep as much of the feed down for as long as possible! Docs wouldnt give B any meds either as like you they said shes gaining weight! Well saying they aint doing all the washing eh?! Although the older she gets i can see the reflux improving plus B will be weaning in a month & the HV reassures me that will help it settle as well.
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Grace

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Tuesday, March 9th 2010, 11:10am

It's very frustrating because I've been telling the HV and Drs that his reflux is not normal but they just fob me off and say all babies are sick, I went to my post natal group yesterday and fed him there and one of the assistants held him for me afterwards while I had a cup of tea (personally I think she just wanted a cuddle) within the space of 15 minutes he'd been sick 6 times of varying amounts, she was covered in it and I said to the HV "see what I mean" to which she replied "oh he can't be like that all the time" Oh can't he! have you seen my cardigan! I can't remember the last time I wasn't covered in barf or last time I smelt nice. I feel really sorry for Jensen because it can't be pleasant for him. I did get infant Gaviscon from the Drs after some nagging a few weeks ago but he won't take it as he doesn't like the taste (and I tasted it and can't blame him) it doesn't matter what I put it in he still won't take it and I went back to the Drs and told them this and they told me to "keep persevering with the Gaviscon"

I agree Scottie, trouble is Jensen likes to be active after his main feed and the more he kicks his legs the more comes up it doesn't matter what angle he's at it still comes up, he's like a pump action baby. At night he doesn't barf as much and voluntarily increased the time between feeds from 2 hourly to 3 hourly a few weeks ago so I get better sleep at night.

Gosh IndieChick, I can't imagine colic and reflux that must have been horrible! Jensen occasionally gets acid reflux and watching him screaming in pain is horrible, thankfully it doesn't usually last more than about 30 minutes and he goes for weeks without having it again.

He's in bed at the moment, I was supposed to go out to baby massage at 11 but he's chosen today to have a long nap, my son is so awkward and so incredibly cute and funny.


ICSI BFP DS1 born Nov 09
Natural BFP DS2 born Sept 11

pamelag088

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Tuesday, March 9th 2010, 5:19pm

Oh Grace sorry about J's weight.

My neice had really bad reflux too, She would projectile vomit her entire feed almost every time. More you fed her, The more she was sick. The HV were exat same to my sister and when the weight wasnt going on the accused her of not feeding her enough. They didnt believe she was bringing up her entire feed even after seeing it for themselves, how frustrating. Neice also wouldnt keep medicine down calpol etc and wasnt weaned til 9months as everytime she felt solids in her mouth she made herself sick.

I hope your listened to soon. I wouldnt let them fob you off. Do you keep a record of daily activites? Perhaps keep a diary of feeds, length of feeds, time and amount of sick, sleep etc and show HV next time you see her. Has his naps been better since you went back to demand feeding?

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Tuesday, March 9th 2010, 6:41pm

Gosh, thankfully we don't get projectile vomiting (thank god). Trouble with recording length of feeds is he feeds so often for short periods. Take tonight for instance, I fed him at 4pm for about 10ish minutes, then he fed again 10 minutes later for about 5, then again 10 minutes later for another 10 minutes then we went for 20 minutes and had about another 5 minutes and so and and so forth until about 5:30 when we had a bath a bit of massage and had another long feed (about 20 minutes as he knew he was going to bed) . He's a really fast feeder and gets loads down in the first 10 minutes but he then spends the rest of the hour topping up what he's throwing up so my diary would be about 20 pages long for one day.

Yes he is sleeping better, he's crying a LOT less as well although he is currently refusing to go to bed so my DH is upstairs with his finger in a naughty boys mouth trying to pursuade him he is tired (and he was soooo good yesterday) still I remember he used to be like this at 10pm and we've only introduced the 6pm bedtime less than a week ago so I can't expect miracles overnight.


ICSI BFP DS1 born Nov 09
Natural BFP DS2 born Sept 11

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