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compley

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2008, 5:17pm

Topping up?!

After a bit of advice (again, sorry!!!!)

Up to now have exclusively bf H, had its up and downs, but am really glad I've kept going!

A few weeks agao H started to feed much closer together, and didnt seem as content after feeds. He was feeding from one side per feed, so after having a read through my bfing books, I read that offering both sides per feed may help. So I started doing that, and it has spaced his feeds out in the day, he will go 4 -4 and half hours between feeds (I have offered feeds sooner then this, was worried when he suddnely started to go quite a bit longer between feeds, but he absolutely refused!)

So he usually feeds 3am, 7-8ish, 11-12ish, 4ish, 7pm and 10pm.

I also try to express, after the 7-8ish feed, for when I go out, and in the next few months want to use EBM for adding to food when weaning, really want to give the bfing a good go, and feed H at least until I return to work when he will be 10 and half months old, or if I can, until he is a year.

Thing is, and I know it is to be expected with a small baby, I am getting absolutely exhausted with the night feed, I'm being totally honest here....just finding it really hard now, and getting increasingly tired each day.

So, have been thinking of things that may help, and am wandering (and a few friends/family have suggested the same thing) about either giving him a formula feed at 10pm, or topping him up with a few oz's of formula after his 10pm feed, to see if he will sleep longer after.

But I am in two minds about it! I worry it will affect my milk supply for the other feeds.

I suppose as well it may not help him sleep through the night. And I also feel guilty about doing it, cos deep down I really want to carry on exclusively bfing, and feel I should perservere, after all no one said this would be easy!!!!

However, like I say, i am starting to struggle with the tiredness (maybe I'm being a bit feeble!), and a few people have said that could be affecting my milk supply, which worries me. Also, think if giving him a bit of formula did help him sleep bit longer, thus meaning I get more sleep, and then am more refreshed to look after him in the day, that isnt a bad thing!!!!

Had almost talked myself into giving formula tonight, but have decided not to! H has had a cold, so we had a particularly bad night last night, and feel it probably isnt the right time to make the decision! He isnt feeding as well, probably because of the cold, so think should wait until he is better, before rushing into anything!

I am going to try and give him a couple of oz's of EBM after his 10pm feed, to see what that does....only thing with that is when I express can only get 30-50mls at a time, and try to do it once a day, but couldnt keep up the supply of giving a couple of oz's of EBM each night, at the mo have quite a bit in the freezer, so thought it may be worth a try to see what happens.

We also put H in his own room a few weeks agao, and think that isnt helping, as getting up and down is more disruptive to sleep then when he was right next to me! tonight, am going to have him in our bed, cos am so tired....is that bad??

sorry for such a long post, getting myself a bit stressed about it all if I'm honest, and just wandered what people think/ if anyone has any advice!

xxx



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Chilli

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2008, 5:34pm

mmmmmm I had these moments with M too I don't think we would be human if we didn't but my only concern is if you top him up with formula there is nothing to say he will sleep longer? you may find yourself still having to get up to feed him during the night. Your supply will demish if you start to include another feed other than BF. Can you grab some catch up sleep during the day?

That said it is YOUR choice and if you feel that it will make life easier then go for it hun :smile: perhaps someone can offer better advise than me on topping up xx

Rivka

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2008, 6:27pm

Hello

I know that all the advice is that any supplementing will diminish your supply but i remember going through exactly what you describe and I did end up giving one bottle a night. I gave breast for the bedtime feed and then if she woke in the night we gave her a bottle. That meant that the night feed could be shared between me and dh and i got some much needed rest and was a better human being for it. In my case my supply wasn't affected and I went on to feed until 12 months.

Whatever you decide, remember that you are doing your very best to take care of H.

Also, so long as you take sensible precautions there is nothing wrong with having H in bed with you.

x







Bells

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Wednesday, January 23rd 2008, 6:58pm

First I have to say a huge 'well done' for coming so far and for thinking about your choices so logically.

I can see that you're commited to breastfeeding which makes a big difference at this point because supplementing can do one of two things, it can prove to be a great way to be flexible as a breastfeeding Mum... or it can be the beginning of the end of breastfeeding and a slippery slope to exclusive bottle feeding. Only you can make the choice and it needs to be a real from the heart decision and one that you're 100% commited to.

It's possible that, like Rivka, you can succesfully include one bottle into your routine without too much of a hiccup providing you understand the implications and providing that you are strict with yourselves. The implications are that you're missing a feed which will affect your prolactin levels which then affect your milk production. You 'will' produce less milk but this won't 'really' matter if you are going to replace that feed anyway. So, if you decide to replace ONE feed at a similar time each night and you aren't going to think "ooh this is easy, we could supplement more of these if we need to!" and you're 100% commited to 'just' replacing that feed with a bottle, then you should be alright.

You might find that baby doesn't sleep more but that it makes you feel a bit of liberation to miss just one feed at night and that may be enough to get you back on track... you could always go back to the breastfeed in that case....

Now.. the term 'topping up' suggests that your breastmilk isn't adequate and that the formula is adding something that you can't provide... which bugs the hell out of me. Supplementing under the correct circumstances can work well... 'topping up' is the way down the slippery slope....





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Thursday, January 24th 2008, 11:27am

ok - I see this as quite back & white as I have quite a few friends who did this and ended up fully formula feeding

I have three pieces of advice

1) dont offer a bottle of formula as a night feed

2) stop expressing - it is tiring you out - use that extra time to do whatever stuff needs to be done in the house and snooze when Harry snoozes

3) go to bed at 7pm & wake up for the dream-feed and then back to bed

If you need to go out, use up your freezer stash, express when you get home to replace the missed feed, and only if the freezer stash is empty, then use formula.

But quite frankly, EBM in food is simply not worth the knackeredness that you are feeling now. I really cant see the point.

Of course you are utterly free to disagree with me.... as I said, I have quite a black & white standpoint on this.

Torisen

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Thursday, January 24th 2008, 3:08pm

Are you a light sleeper or could you sleep through a train crash?
If you are light sleeper then bed sharing is wonderful! We did this until Z was 7 months old or so and didn't need a night feed.
This ment that I could just roll over and plop a boob in his mouth and continue snoozing. No getting out of bed, feeding, settling in cot and try to get yourself to sleep!
Just roll over, boob plop, snooze

I slept pretty good until he was 7 months and started thinking that my breasts were a dummy and feeding 4 times a night again. WHen that day came we put him in his own cot. Had one weeks of sleep training and then he was sleeping from 7 til 7

I found that expressing in the morning was better for me if you have to express but it can be very tireing. Make sure your diet is really good, lots of iron etc.

Well done for doing so well with your BF!
ICSI Jan 2006 - BFP
MC one twin at 6 weeks
DS born in Oct 2006
BF DS 10 months 3 weeks and 5 days
FET 11/07, ICSI 12/07 (ABANDONED), ICSI 2/08, IUI 5/08 - BFN
Clomid IUI 7/08 BFP MC a twin... again :(


compley

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Sunday, January 27th 2008, 5:27pm

thanks for all your advice blowkiss

Well, we have had a think over the past few days, and have decided, at the mo to try a few things!

I really want to carry on with exclusive bfing, so my heart wasn't really in giving some formula with the 10pm feed, and do worry if I go through a patch when I get very tired etc, I may think 'well, lets just give this feed as a formula feed etc, and it could be the beginning of the end of bfing, without me really wanting it to!'
So am fending off advice from friends and family to give formula because they think I haven't got enough milk, H isn't being filled up enough with breast milk etc! (a couple of things that have been said to me these past few days!)

So to try and help with the bfing, especially at night, we have bought H back into our room (part of the reason we moved him into his own room, was because he had outgrown moses basket and cotbed wouldn't fit into our room), so we have bought a cheapish cot that fits into small gap, next to my side of bed. I do find the whole night feeds/settling him at night easier when he is right next to me at the mo, so maybe not a decision everyone would make, but it is the right thing for us, and when H drops the night feeds/is more settled at night, we will move him back to his own room.

Once a week I am going to sleep in spare room, and Dh will do the 'night shift' with a bottle of EBM, he did this Friday, and I felt so much better for it!

As for expressing, I feel I need to carry on, as have reached a point where I am finding it easier to express, whereas when I started I found it hard to express any milk, so would like to keep this up. By the nature of expressing in between feeds, I do not express for very long, and if I have had a bad night with H, and am very tired, or am going out, I do not express those days, so feel I am quite flexible with it, and it does give me the freedom of knowing there is a stock in the freezer, which enables me to go out!

So we will see how things go, as I really would like to continue bfing for the forseeable future!

xxx

xxx



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Chilli

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Sunday, January 27th 2008, 5:50pm

That's great Laura :D what a good idea your DH having the night shift aswell I might try that one! My Dh asked me that other day if I was planning on BF which of course I am and he said "phew I won't have to get up!" errrr yes you will now lmao

Friends and family mean well but it's easy for them to advise FF and you don't have enough milk ect i suppose they see a very tired mum and think that's for the best but really some encouragement is what is really needed, my mum kept on telling to FF as if it was a given anyway so why not do it now, it made me more determined to carry on BF which eventually does become very convenient even if to start with it's hard.

xx

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Monday, January 28th 2008, 9:07am

I am so pleased for you!!
You really are doing great!

I found that urtica (i think it is called that, nettles) tincture and Weledas blackthorn elexir helped with my milk supply when I was run down!

You can get urtica from any good homoeopathic pharmacy (like Ainsworth Pharmacy) and there are now several sites doing blackthorn elexir on the web! XX
ICSI Jan 2006 - BFP
MC one twin at 6 weeks
DS born in Oct 2006
BF DS 10 months 3 weeks and 5 days
FET 11/07, ICSI 12/07 (ABANDONED), ICSI 2/08, IUI 5/08 - BFN
Clomid IUI 7/08 BFP MC a twin... again :(


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Monday, January 28th 2008, 11:55am

well done Laura - good for you!

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Monday, January 28th 2008, 11:57am

Hi Laura

If you are wanting to keep frozen EBM to make up solids when he gets to that, then if you're committed to 100% breastmilk, surely it's more important to use up your frozen supply of EBM now for feeds rather than save it for later. By the time he's on solids, he's not completely dependent on your body, so for me, the milk-only phase was the most important time to use EBM.

I used to get DH to do the 3am feed on both weekend nights and that was a lifesaver.

Do you wake him at 3am, or does he always wake himself? You could try leaving him for just a few minutes as some babies get into the habit of wanting a feed in the middle of the night when actually hunger isn't a major factor. If he just grunts and chunters away, leave him for a bit and you may find he settles himself off for longer. If they can see themselves through till 5am (quite possible at 3 months old), you will be a transformed woman!

You're doing so well, well done!
Had a total of three fresh IVF cycles and three frozen transfers (embryos and blastocysts)
m/c @ 11 weeks in 2007 DS1 and DS2 born from fresh IVF cycles :D
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Monday, March 31st 2008, 9:38am

hello - i know its only day four but i need some advice. PP jr has been feeding almost constantly for the last two days, poor little man starts to feed and after about max an hour or min 7 mins is so tired to suck anymore, he sleeps for about 5 mins and wont settle and then wants more food...i thought he would be fuller since my milk came in, it seems its just not enough to even give him one decent feed.... dh and i wanted to bf and then maybe express one extra feed for when he wanted to feed the baby or it was needed, this plan seems so stupid now... thing is jr has always been on the lowest percentile and is tiny compared to my or dh's birth weight... my mum has always had to top up since birth as she could never get enough milk to us. it seems mean to let him be and risk him getting thinner. he hasnt been full for a two days and i have sent dh to get some top up milk. my breasts are tired from trying to feed him and i am knackered from being awake.
i guess i am just looking for someone to say its ok and help me top him up. shall i give it to him in a bottle? beaker? what do i do. i feel terrible that i cant feed him - nor can i express one bottle to see how much i am producing as he has been feeding for two days and i doubt i will get any decent answer today...or is there a chance i top him up for the next few days after bf and then try to express one bottle to increase my supply? this would be ideal if possible

just very confused.

i will try to express a little later on to see whats coming out - but just have seen one breast has milk and the other is empty or has none - dont know if its because he has finised it in that breast (would have thought there would be some always left in the breast) or if there is a problem with it.
Peppermint Patty

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ICSI Aug 07 - DR July 13th - Shock NATURAL BFP 25th July 07! - baby boy march 08
May 09 - VERY SHOCKING NATURAL BFP!!!! - Baby Girl Jan 10

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Peppermint Patty" (Mar 31st 2008, 9:44am)


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Monday, March 31st 2008, 12:49pm

darling,

I'm sure bells will come along soon but here is a quick potted version (v tired me here)

new borns are bl**dy hard work and what you are experiencing is completely and utterly normal but in a few weeks (sorry....) it will be over with and things will settle down

I *know* the thought of this continuing for ever is horrendous but (a) it really is only temporary and (b) you only get this chance once in your baby's life

the more your baby sucles the more your breasts will make milk and that will fill him up perfectly

the amazing thing about breast milk is that you really cannot underfeed or overfeed breastfeeding babies if you feed them when they ask for it!

you CAN and ARE feeding your son

however, if you try and bottle feed with non breast milk when your child is a few days old hte chances are very high that you will sabotage your chances of successfully breastfeeding your child. sorry - this comes across really harsh, but it is reality in most cases.

the best thing you can do for you & your child is to spend all your time in bed, feed your baby when the baby cries and sleep when the baby sleeps. if your DH wants to help, get him to make food for you and do the cleaning.

it *WILL* get better - you're doing a great job!

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Monday, March 31st 2008, 12:54pm

thank you sunshine, i just want to hug you.

i am just setting up the expressing maching to see what happens....if i do that then can i feed him that milk from the bottle or do i mess up bf ding? i just want to see what comes out...morbid curiosity plus then i can be at peace that he *is* getting some nutrition. keep looking at him to see if he is yellow or dehydrated....
Peppermint Patty

Me 29 - DH 34
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3 x Clomid - 3 x BFN
Ovarian Drilling Nov 06
ICSI March 07 - BFP 4/4/7- OHSS - All Gone 12/4/7
ICSI Aug 07 - DR July 13th - Shock NATURAL BFP 25th July 07! - baby boy march 08
May 09 - VERY SHOCKING NATURAL BFP!!!! - Baby Girl Jan 10

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Monday, March 31st 2008, 1:19pm

lol

I wouldnt bother, honestly.... it will only depress you! :D

you really have to trust your body
it will make precisely what is required for your baby, no more no less

if your baby is feeding then you will only get drips out when you start expressing - this will settle out in a few weeks time, but for the moment I would seriously just concentrate on you & bubs

when I look back at my diaries of my bubs I was feeding from start of feed to start of feed every 2 hours 24/7 for the first couple of weeks

freaking hard work and exhausting

expressing was pointless because you dont have time between expressing & trying to feed bubs to actually enjoy the time away

also, if you bubs is low(er) birthweight then it has been scientifically proven that mum to baby touch is the absolute best thing for increasing birth weight - ie touch your baby as often as possible! and the best way to touch? naked breastfeeding in bed..... perfect :yumyum:

just for reassurance, my 2nd son ws born 5 weeks premature, and only weighed about 2kg (just over 4lbs). At 8 months he is already outgrowing in length the 9-12 month outfits!!!!

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Monday, March 31st 2008, 3:09pm

Oooh PP, you've got yourself into areal pickle here haven't you?

Sunshine's words are absolutely spot on to the last letter, I can't reiterate enough that what you're experiencing is totally normal, it does not mean or prove that you don't have enough milk, that he's going hungry or that things aren't going well..... it means that you have a normal newborn baby and you are both learning to breastfeed. Some newborn babies need to breastfeed almost constantly. It's natures way of getting you to supply lots of milk, it's normal and it's healthy (did I mention knackering? ... it's that too!) Your milk at this stage is so incredibly easy for him to digest, it's so gentle on his tummy and contains healthy bacterial flora which lines his gut, it's also easy for him to absorb nutrients. Artificial milk isn't so easy to digest, that's why babies don't feel hunger so quickly but this has its own disadvantages because it's not so gentle on the tum... which can lead to colic and constipation. Each method has disadvantages which must be considered.

It sounds as if he's draining your breasts really well, that means that if you try to express you're in danger of getting a few drips out, maybe a few mls and then you're going to panic. Remember that 'he' is far far better at milking your breast than any machine or contraption. He and you are both perfectly anatomically designed for this and so expressing rarely gives an accurate representation of how much milk you have.... at least... not four days past birth with a first baby!! Sunshine is also right, supplementing feeds is usually, in a vast percentage of cases, going to hinder breastfeeding to the point where it usually fails. In addition, going to the trouble of expressing less milk than he can suckle just to feed it in a bottle kinda defeats the object. If hubby wants to do something give him a list starting with washing, ironing, cooking, cleaning and looking after you. If he wants to feed then ask him to grow a pair of breasts :snigger: That being said, a few weeks down the line, once your milk is established, you can introduce a bottle of breastmilk to give you some freedom.

I cannot stress enough that Sunshine's suggestion of a 'babymoon' is really the best advice that anyone can give you right now. Thirty - forty years ago, when our Mothers had us, they were kept in hospital, in bed for 10 days. They were brought meals and drinks and allowed to learn how to be mothers. Now, in the age of the modern woman we are discharged as soon as 6 hours after birth and everything's expected to fall into place, your visitors turn up in droves, you're up, dressed and knackered! It's too much pressure!!

If I was in your situation I would strip off, go to bed, get hubby to bring your meals up, watch TV, feed your baby, sleep with your baby, read magazines, do crosswords, drink pints of water and do nothing else but bond. If you have visitors get them to come up to the bedroom, that usually ensures that they don't stay too long either. There is NOTHING more important than you and your baby at the moment.





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Monday, March 31st 2008, 5:12pm

Thnk you both for your advice. You are right. I tried the machine and got three drops out and freaked out. We have a top up feed but have no intention of using it presently. I intend to do exactly as you say. I currently have him under my top and on a breast. He doesn't suckle continuously but takes a few sips and then chills out for a while with a breast in his mouth. I suspect a part of it is hunger and a lot of it is to do with being close to me. I guess I have not yet fully comprehended that I am his mother and that he wants me. I think I so overwhelmed and a lot is happening to me and everywhere you look there is conflicting advce.

Can I also ask how many wet nappies a day I should reasonably expect?

Thank you very much.

PP
Peppermint Patty

Me 29 - DH 34
PCOS & Male Factor
TTC 2yrs
3 x Clomid - 3 x BFN
Ovarian Drilling Nov 06
ICSI March 07 - BFP 4/4/7- OHSS - All Gone 12/4/7
ICSI Aug 07 - DR July 13th - Shock NATURAL BFP 25th July 07! - baby boy march 08
May 09 - VERY SHOCKING NATURAL BFP!!!! - Baby Girl Jan 10

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Peppermint Patty" (Mar 31st 2008, 7:02pm)


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Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 1:05pm

PP between 5 & 15 nappies a day at this stage!!! depends on the nappy, the baby and how often mum checks ;)

your DS has been with you 24/7 feeling & smelling & touching you for the last 9 months - it is perfectly natural he wants to be with you now!!!

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Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 1:33pm

I had a massive row with my mum who wanted me to top up yesterday. the mw came today and said he had lost 12% and since he was feeding all the time and that his poo was still the merc and he only has about 2 -4 wet nappies in 24 hours... i needed to top him up - she said there was no time to run out and get a beaker and we gave him a bottle which he drank. she wanted to take him back to hospital as he was a tad jaundiced and since i had the gbs and she wanted to make sure that everything was ok. she spoke to the dr and they said mw is to come back in two days and if he is ok then fine otherwise we are back to hospital

i have been told to feed from one breast for 30 mins and then top him up with either 30ml of expressed bm or formula.

i feel like i have failed my little chipmonk after 4 days.....i feel dreadful
Peppermint Patty

Me 29 - DH 34
PCOS & Male Factor
TTC 2yrs
3 x Clomid - 3 x BFN
Ovarian Drilling Nov 06
ICSI March 07 - BFP 4/4/7- OHSS - All Gone 12/4/7
ICSI Aug 07 - DR July 13th - Shock NATURAL BFP 25th July 07! - baby boy march 08
May 09 - VERY SHOCKING NATURAL BFP!!!! - Baby Girl Jan 10

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Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 1:49pm

YOu havent failed sometimes things get taken out of our hands -

Chin up chicken if the HV says to do it there must be sound reason for it & if you use expressed BM theres no reason when he cant have a good old proper Breast feed when he is stronger.
Sure bells and Sunshine will be along shorly to offer to batter your HV and give you a cuddle x x x x
1st go ICSI - @ royal shewsbury and Telford NHS funded
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test date - Thursday 13th April, BFP :D :D :D
:baby: ITS TWINS :baby:
M.L & J.F - Born 9/11/06 6w prem (6lb 5oz & 4lb 10oz)

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Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 1:50pm

Did HW say to put PP jnr in front of the window for a couple of days the sunlight *really* can help. :happy:
1st go ICSI - @ royal shewsbury and Telford NHS funded
25 eggs collected 27/3/06
15 fertilized - 8 grade A - 2 transfered 30th/3
test date - Thursday 13th April, BFP :D :D :D
:baby: ITS TWINS :baby:
M.L & J.F - Born 9/11/06 6w prem (6lb 5oz & 4lb 10oz)

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Tuesday, April 1st 2008, 6:31pm

NO!

Your midwife, I'm afraid to say, is .... a little behind on her accurate breastfeeding advice (that's a polite way of putting it). Her advice is likely to spell the end of effective breastfeeding for you which is fine if you want to end breastfeeding but not if you want to carry on.

First of all, it's perfectly normal for babies to lose an average of 10% birth weight after birth. This is because when baby is born he is full of liquid, swollen and has been squashed. As his organs begin to work he wees and poos, the water retention goes and he loses weight. Combined with that, breastmilk is not a bulk building liquid like formula milk, for the first three or four days you are feeding only colostrum which is amber nectar in terms of health benefits, nutrients, vitamins, healthy bacteria, immune system boosters and so on and so on ........ and so you often find that breastfed babies dip right down in the week after birth while their bodies utilise what's coming in and get rid of the waste products which have built up before birth.

So.... jaundice. Absolutely normal in babies and especially breastfed ones. It's not a problem and breastfeeding is a fine way of getting through it. The main thing is to keep baby hydrated and so if that means that you are feeding constantly then so be it. Of course, if you want to offer a bottle of milk then that's fine but at this very early stage it's important to establish your milk supply and the only way to do that is by feeding. Don't get yourself into a tiz over jaundice, it may mean a day or two lazing under a sunbed for him but it's so common and it's not a reason to give up breastfeeding.

Why would you breastfeed for 30 minutes and then express your own milk to feed it to him in a bottle? Ask her that when you next see her, I'd be interested to hear her reply. If you feed for 30 minutes from one side then what happens to the creamy calorific breast milk that's still left inside your breast when you take him off? Doesn't she think that baby PP should be drinking that creamy calorific milk? I certainly do....!

I prescribe a babymoon!!





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Wednesday, April 2nd 2008, 12:55pm

sorry I only replied now - I'm in Asia so I am 8 hours ahead of you so 2pm your time is 10pm my time & I'm in bed then!!!!

JJ was in hospital for a week in the sunbed after birth because he was jaundiced

He also lost almost 20% of his bodyweight in that first week despite being exclusively breastfed

Some babies do

You literally do have to take to bed now if you want to preserve your chances of breastfeeding, and just breastfeed him and nothing else. Your DH needs to pick up the slack and sort the rest of the house out and feed and water you.

If he cries, feed him. Feed him at 8am. If at 10am he hasnt cried for food or is asleep, wake him and feed him again. At noon, do the same; at 2pm do the same again. At 4pm feed him again.

And again and again and again.

At 10pm feed him, and go to sleep. When he wakes, feed him. At 6am start the 2 hour schedule again.

Every single time you feed, drink at least 1 LARGE glass of water (about 300-500ml). Make sure when YOU pee that your pee is pale yellow coloured and not dark. Snack on biscuits throughout the day, eat pasta & sandwiches.

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Wednesday, April 2nd 2008, 9:34pm

You know PP, I was talking to my Mum about this today and she was saying how in the 70s, when she had me, she was ordered to stay in bed for those ten whole days after having me. If she got out of bed the nurse would run down the ward and order her back in bed with her baby. It sounds awful to us on the face of things but in those days new Mums had a bloody good chance to crack breastfeeding and yet now we're made to feel a failure if, within a couple of days of birth, we're not up, dressed, shopping, cooking, meeting and greeting visitors AND breastfeeding a new baby. In fact, nowadays you're expected to do all of the above and if you haven't the energy then breastfeeding is the first thing to be given up!!

Sunshine's advice is sound, bed, eat, drink, feed, bed, eat, drink, feed.....





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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 12:57pm

PP i stayed in the bedroom just bf and sleeping to begin with cos i didn't have the energy to do anything else, dh cooked me food, cleaned the house etc, bf is hard to begin with and for me is still hard now but am starting to get into some sort of routine, Eliana feeds every 2 hours in the day and 3 hours at night. I have expressed milk when i get time - it really is hard to find time to do it, and she takes the bottle really well. I am thinking of letting dh do the before bed time feed so i can get to bed earlier cos i never know what kind of night i am going to have, some nights she feeds and settles really well and others like last night was awful - she woke at 1am screaming the house down (colic) was due a feed but wouldn't feed through screaming she finally settled at 3am then woke at 3.30am for a feed.

Bells that is so true what you have said about what we are expected to do.

Sending you hugs

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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 2:42pm

sorry for the threadjack, but ruthie - have you tried eliminating dairy products completely from your diet?

also eliminate eggs & caffeine from your diet.

you might find the colic reduces considerably within 7-10 days if you do this, because young babies can be very very sensitive to these food substances coming through the mother's milk, and is often thought to be a large contributor to colic.

as the baby's system matures more then they can tolerate the substances again which is why colic appears to get better with age

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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 5:59pm

guys, i have not lifted a finger,, dh has done everything short of going to the bathroom for me.... sadly i have done the unpopular thing and topped him up. i hadnt slept for 3 nights as he and i were constantly up feeding, he was in terrible shape and looked awful, i could hardly walk or lift my arms as i was so exhausted, dh was feeding me! i didnt think it was fair that poor bubs has spent 3 days feeding almost non stop...( i think the most between feeds was 30 mins or something silly like that) .and was never close to being full and after a while didnt even have the energy to suck ...(my pee is running clear sunshine).......i have spent the last 3 days in tears feeling guilty that i have been starving him and he has been feeding on hardly anything. dh and my mum have been worried that i was getting depressed and i was getting to a stage where i wanted someone to take him and look after him as i was doing such a rubbish job. now he is eating and i can see how much he needs, i know that i coudlnt have produced that myself. i understand the benifits of BF and i really wanted to BF him only and then put him on to food. dh was against topping him up - i now resent the whole thing. i should have enjoyed being a mother, not felt like a total failure and have to watch my child waste away. it takes one midwife to say something and my bubs would have ended up back in hospital....in my view the bugs and germs lurking around there along with invasive treatments are not worth it.... i was topped up - i am fine.... i dont understand why there is this fatalistic attitude to everything. i am still BF and topping him up. he is healthy, happy and content...i have spoken to a few of my friends who too have found the BF thing shoved down thier throats and have felt they have suffered and their babies not benefited from the state they were in.... they are now anti BF - i am sure this was not anyones aim, i am Asian, we are meant to be at home for 40 days nurturing our child, i have had everything that we do to increase milk - i just dont have it. i havent left my bedroom even to go downstairs..... they say 2% of women dont manage to produce enough milk - my mum has gone through the trauma of this, she tried to save me from the upset, i didnt listen - i really wish i had.... i know this isnt what you guys think is the right thing to have done... but i am happier for it and so is he, if i had continued down that road, i would still be in tears and in that frame of mind i really would have fallen apart. I wonder if anyone else has experienced a situation where you are not able to produce enough milk to feed your baby? If so, were you advised what to do in such a situation? I wish the midwives in hospital would tell you this as well as it would save a lot of heartache.
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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 6:47pm

PP, it doesn't matter what we or anyone else think is or was the right thing. The right thing is what's right for you and your baby at the time and as long as you're happy with what you're doing then stuff anyone else.

I know how tiring it can all be, it's very hard to support women in these very early days and give accurate advice based on the benefit of experience and research without it coming over as pressure, the last thing anyone wants is for ANY new Mum to feel under pressure to do something when she isn't in the position to do anything about it.

I'm sure you haven't been starving your baby, it's impossible to tell how much milk he's been getting and all babies are born with an innate urge to suck which accounts for why he 'wants' to suck all the time. Some babies need to suck more than others, mainly for comfort, and some seem content with only sucking when milk is being offered. It could be that you fall into the bracket of the 1% of the population who doesn't produce enough milk to sustain a newborn baby, even if this is the case you can still offer the breast (if you want to) along with formula milk and combine it that way. If the situation you're in is down to you being mentally and physically exhausted, having a super-sucky baby, seeing him lose weight which has made you worried and just needing some time to gather your strength up then the chance is still there for you to rest now and then increase breastfeeds and your milk supply again in the future.

Of course, if you choose to bottle feed then nobody will say a word, it's important that you have all the facts right now as a few weeks down the line it's often too late to go back which is why you get so much information and direction at this very difficult time.





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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 8:18pm

thank you bells. you are lovely. i still am BF ing - i know its benifits and am upset it didnt work out the way i imagined - there is no nipple confusion that i can see (the midwife made it all doomed as he would have nipple confusion and everything wold go to pot!) and he is happy to suck away at my breast and then tops up about half an hour later and then is happy for a few hours. i know the all the good things
about BF ing and want to pass them on to my son.
thank you for your help and support - really means the world to me.
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Thursday, April 3rd 2008, 9:28pm

Hi PP. I don't want to offer you any advice as Bells is getting it spot on already. I just wanted to say that I have felt how you are feeling, it actuallty hurts to read your posts (sorry), but you are doing such a fantastic job. Your baby is getting breast milk and thats wonderful. And I know you probably heard this before but being a brand new mum is scary and hard work and in a lot of ways really horrible (and of course you never expected that) but it really does get easier. there will be a time very soon when its fun and all your dreams of motherhood have come true.





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Friday, April 4th 2008, 1:26pm

PP i agree with Bells, each to their own, as long as you and baby are happy thats all that matters.

I am contemplating giving formula on a night cos i just aint getting any sleep and was hoping that it would fill her up a bit more so that she would sleep a bit longer, hv suggested trying topping up with expressed milk - its just finding the time.

I just don't know what to do, she feeds every 2 hours during the day and every 3 if i'm lucky on a night.

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Friday, April 4th 2008, 2:11pm

*ruthie*

but that is normal sweetie - little babies have tiny tiny tummies which is why they need to feed so often

I had a little rule that worked for DS#1 and helped me mentally much better for DS#2

the feeding gap was sort of as follows:
2 hours at 2 months
3 hours at 3 months
4 hours at 4 months

24/7

as the baby gets bigger the tummy gets bigger and the gap between feeds gets bigger

eventually, at 8 months DS#2 is now sleeping from 7pm until 6:30am without needing food!

it doesnt last for ever, honest!

but the first 3 months are incredibly insanely hard!

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Friday, April 4th 2008, 2:18pm

PP

I do hope you dont feel that we are trying to pressurise you into breastfeeding. However, if you ask for advice on breastfeeding then that is what we will try and help you with. It is not meant to shove breastfeeding down your throat (funny phrase!!! :D ) because that is the last thing that an exhausted new mum needs.

But I can see between your mum, your HV/MW and your advice on how to help increase your milk from friends, relatives & husband, how battered your confidence must be.

Big hugs, and YOU do the right thing for YOU & YOUR child. Your the mum. NOT your mum. YOU. Not us. YOU.

and you are fantastic.

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Sunday, April 6th 2008, 10:39am

Thanks Sunshine xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

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Sunday, April 6th 2008, 5:06pm

sorry to have gone off on one..... i am feeliong much better, i think my milk has increased, still not feeling engorged or enough to fill his little tummy. jr has been BF and then bottle to top up and he and i are doing well.
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Monday, April 7th 2008, 11:28am

Glad to hear that you and little bubs are doing well PP xxxxxxx

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Monday, April 7th 2008, 11:59am

hiya PP

glad to hear you're both doing well

hormones have a lot to answer for eh? :snigger:

anyhooo...... with DS#1 I was sooooo engorged and leaking milk everywhere wetting the bedsheets for months - yuck

with DS#2 very little engorgement and only a few damp patches at night once he started to sleep for 3-4 hours at a time

DS#1 only needed one boob until 3 months, DS#2 needed two boobs from 1 month....

every child and every mother is different

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Monday, April 7th 2008, 3:11pm

Glad that i can find out info from you guys on here cos i don't really have anyone to talk to about breastfeeding - just thought i'd say THANKYOU!!!! :smile: :smile:

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Saturday, April 19th 2008, 1:13pm

thank you everyone. i think i was being driven nuts by everyone, had him latched on in tears for those days. can i ask....what the proper way to bf is? i have been told

- one breast per feed

- equal times on each breast

- one breast to feed him and then two sucks on the second as it is pudding! (?!)

i have been doing number 2 and then "expressing" what i can when he has done with one breast and then giving those few tea spoons to him too....by this time he has got past the water milky bit to the real milky bit.

thank you bells, sunshine and ruthie. i think i was just at the end of my fuse, everyone saying something different, all people i trust. felt very torn and like whatever i did it would be wrong.

now we are just doing both. in a way i guess everyone is happy.
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Saturday, April 19th 2008, 10:34pm

PP you are going to get a lot of conflicting advice even here, Hun. I can tell you what worked (still works) for me but it may not work for you as i truly believe each person is different.
I fed C on one boob for two feeds in a row before swapping over to the other breast. On occasion he would feed on one side then drop the breast but still show that he was hungry - in those instances I would swap him over to the other breast so that he could feed till sated. I never timed his feeds but let him continue to suckle till he let go. Today I still try to feed on one side only per feed and occasionally two feeds in a row on the same side but I know my supply is dwindling (that is the natural order of things at C's age) so he often swaps to the second breast mid-feed.

I was advised to give one breast per feed unless he indicated he needed more - in which case he could have the second. I was also advised to start the next feed on the breast he took second.
In the end you will work out what works for you and your baby and, if you are comfy with it and he is happy and healthy, don't let anyone tell you that your way of doing it is wrong.


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At 3 and a half C finally gave up the boob!

This post has been edited 1 times, last edit by "Rene" (Apr 19th 2008, 10:48pm)


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Sunday, April 20th 2008, 2:53am

PP - gosh, feeding, expressing then hand feeding seems like a lot of work!

Ok, I may give some advice here that makes you want to tear your hair out in frustration.....but.... I personally wouldnt bother with the expressing and then hand feeding. Especially dont do it to make people happy..... even us! :P The most important person's happiness is YOURS, then your child!

Your child knows better than anyone else when he is full. If he can latch and feed well, and when you offer a breast he refuses it then he is full.

The other thing is as Rene says - each & every child & mother is different - having had two now I am gobsmacked at how different my two boys are in terms of feeding & personality!!!

In addition, as babies get bigger sometimes their food requirements outgrows the ability of the mother to produce enough milk from one boob. At 1-2 months I found one boob was enough, from around 3 months both my sons needed a second boob (pudding if you like :D ).

What worked for me..... feed on one boob (L=left). I would let my boy dictate how long he wanted to feed for. However, if he was still feeding after 20 minutes, and or he started bashing my boob, and or he would start bobbing on & off the boob, I would burp him & then switch him to the other boob (R=right). I would then let him feed on the (R) for as long as he wanted. If he didnt want to latch & feed on the second boob (R) I wouldnt stress, I would just think "ok - end of feed".

For the next feed I would start with the (R) boob, and again let him feed for as long as he wanted (could be 5-10 minutes at 2 months, 20 minutes at 3 months). Again, if still feeding after 20 minutes, and or all the other signs of still hungry, then I would burp him and then offer the other boob (L).

For the next feed I would start with the (L) boob......

and so on......

Does that help?

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Sunday, April 20th 2008, 2:26pm

...and just to be different again....

I fed from just one side for as long as the baby wanted regardless of how old they were or how long they wanted to feed for.

If you take baby off at a certain time and put it onto the other side there's a chance that they could get foremilk - hindmilk *swap*- foremilk. On the next feed they then get hindmilk *swap* foremilk- hindmilk ...... it's all different advice but does it matter? If it works for you and your baby is happy then no it really doesn't. That's the way I did it and if the way you're doing it suits you then stick with it. I'll agree though that expressing is a bit of a pain and if it's a hassle for you then I wouldn't bother for the sake of a few teaspoons which probably takes your baby seconds to suckle out of the breast.





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Sunday, April 20th 2008, 5:21pm

not easy is it! thank you - will ditch the expressing and let him tell me what to do.
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Monday, April 21st 2008, 12:40pm

PP - have you tried this link by the way? How much milk will my baby need? it will give you an idea of how much milk your baby needs to drink to reassure you that the expressing isnt necessary if you are already feeding.

You know, in some ways I agree with Bells.... the way I did it was fore-hind-fore followed by hind-fore-hind, but it worked for my little ones. Also, I was advised that any suckling after 20 minutes on the same boob was just for comfort.... perhaps so, and perhaps I should have just let be, but my kids needed to feed on a second boob after 20 minutes anyway because they were still hungry. As I mentioned, DS#1 used to bash my boob with his little fisty in frustration to try and get more milk out! :snigger: although it wasnt funny at the time! :snigger:

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Monday, April 21st 2008, 1:11pm

I feed Eliana on one side for as long as she wants - it is never more than 20 mins, usually i burp her twice in the middle of feed and at end, I change side for each feed. I would say that everyone is different - what works best for you. Sometimes i express, i haven't done for a week or so though, i have tried formula on a night but it doesn't make any difference in terms of how long she sleeps.

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Monday, April 21st 2008, 2:29pm

*ruthie*

absolutely - as I mentioned, I only moved to a second boob at around 3 months for both of the boys, and no disrespect to you & Bells, but I have seen & been told that boys are generally hungrier than girls which may be why boys often need 2 boobs, whereas girls often need only 1 boob.

I also agree that formula makes no difference to the length of time that a baby sleeps at this age (0-3 months) since their tummies are so small that they fill up quickly, and then empty quickly.... it's age & weight & size related as to how long they can last before they start sleeping for 6-8 hours continuously.

Both my sons were 6 months before they slept from 10:30pm until 6am. And 8 months when they slept from 7pm to 7am. But they did! eventually.....although still on odd occasions they wake up..... :shush:

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Monday, April 21st 2008, 2:39pm

It's important to remember that all breasts contain different amounts of milk making tissue too. Small breasts can contain more breast tissue than larger breasts so it's not dependant on size but there will be huge variations from woman in the quantity of milk in each breast. A woman with a small amount of breast tissue can happily feed a baby by offering and draining both breasts while another woman may still have a half full breast after fully satisfying her baby using only one side. As much as breasts vary, so do appetites and we're all individuals eh?

If it works for 'your' baby then it's right. It's an art as much as a science.





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Monday, April 21st 2008, 2:42pm

what's worse though is how itty bitty your titties become *after* finishing feeding - I'm a boy!!!! :bawl: :cross: :O :8o:

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Monday, April 21st 2008, 9:23pm

Just wanted to say thanks for the advice on this thread. My little girl feeds every 3 hours but sometimes goes every 2 and god help us sometimes every hour! I feed her one breast per feed for as long as she wants unless she starts getting frustrated and then I swap her. I was expressing so that my dh could do some feeding and also as we give her her vitamins in a bit of expressed milk but it reallly stresses me out finding time to express inbetween feeds.

We tried her on formula last night and it made no difference whatsoever to her sleeping longer - it did however give my poor boobs a break.

I never realised how all consuming breast feeding is!

Ruthie - I think we're in the same position - the longest my little girl has slept overnight is 4 hours and i'm so frazzled some days!

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Tuesday, April 22nd 2008, 11:27am

Toffee its good to know someone is in the same position as me. My whole life revolves around her feeds not that i mind!! Last night she didn't sleep well at all but she has a cough and cold - its amazing how you get used to lack of sleep - although it does catch up on me from time to time and i have an emotional outbreak :bawl: Things are so much better now we are in some kind of a routine.


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